Curse

HawkofStorms · Aug 14, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Dervs suck, but so do A/D and W/Ds using scythes. Its not like you see those in the GvG meta either. The point is, not only do A/Ds and W/Ds need to be nerfed, but the Dervishes also need to be buffed. Just nerfing A/D, W/D builds won't suddenly make Dervs "good." Just buffing Dervs won't make them better then the alternatives. You need to do both.

Evasion Twenty · Aug 14, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

/notsigned

No real reason, and if you were to add it to the already 3 max, may aswell go AoE bomber.

It's not changing mysticism, it's changing energy problems.

And cool it with the freaking "Dervs suck, change it" threads, Bajebus Rice!

reaper with no name · Aug 14, 2009, 02:50 AM // 02:50

I'll stop it when there's a real reason to play my favorite class.

Btw, even if dervishes could spam attack skills as often as W/Ds and A/Ds, they still wouldn't be as effective, because those classes get strength and critical strikes. Hence, why nerfing those two is a better solution. At least then it would work it making dervishes useful.

Evasion Twenty · Aug 14, 2009, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Or you could make the Primary Attribute more of an energy-mangement role, like it should be. (Without adding external skills/modifications to the arguement).

Saying slap a zealous mod on wont be beneficial, it doesnt need a zealous mod to work with Energy strorage, soul reaping, ect.

Most roles have e-management primaries, but that's where it belongs.

Mesmers, Warriors, and Monks are the only ones I know that dont really have a good e-management primary.

Ex. Warriors strength may affect counter attack, but the attribute itself (compare to soul reaping) isnt pure energy.

Every other class has energy mangement.

Believe it or not Rits do in a way. The longer the weapon spells and binding rituals last, the more energy they regenerate, (based on default settings, like no upkept enchantments).

Myst should have a better effect than "energy on end effect". More like each enchantment cast, or more pips of regen you get, something along those lines.

Catchphrase · Aug 14, 2009, 07:38 AM // 07:38

I don't understand why people think mysticism is at fault for dervish's mediocrity. And scythe is still as fine as it should be on a dervish as dervish is not a true martial profession at all unlike warriors and assassins.

draxynnic · Aug 14, 2009, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

I can't say I like racthoh's idea, because I never use mysticism in my scythe builds and don't plan to.

And you don't think a profession not having a good incentive to use its primary attribute is a bad thing?

If you're not using Mysticism, why not use Warrior's Endurance instead (and thus spec into Strength rather than Wind Prayers) and get the extra armour of a warrior?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinguinius

Lyssa's extra energy is useless and in HM the monsters cast so fast it's hard to hit them during skill activation, and any skill that you could hit them during would be better off interrupted.

I strongly disagree on this one. The energy is quite useful for getting all the enchantments you want down (AoHM, HoF, Eternal Aura - note that with the latter, the previous two are almost maintainable) and having energy to follow up with attack skills. As for the skills - just pick a target that's going to be using skills, and you'll catch them mid-skill often enough.

MagmaRed · Aug 14, 2009, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

It's not fill in the blank: The options are A) Yes, I think this is better than leaving the dervish useless, even if it's not my preferred solution, B) No, I'd rather the dervish remain forever useless than for this to be implemented, even if there were no other options, or C) No, because I don't believe dervishes are underpowered (let's leave the reasons out, please; those belong in the other thread I linked to above)

Which is why you put a poll up? I personally mentioned doing this in a topic about Dervishes being outclassed by other classes. However, I did so at random, without putting thought into it, or considering balance issues. I figured most people would laugh at the idea and never want it.... it was not made as a suggestion to be used. I am not claiming to be the first to have thought of this, but I have not seen discussion of doing so very often. And although I think Dervish could use some help, it doesn't need very much. Most of the people I see asking for Dervish to be buffed make it sound as though the class is not worth using at all. That is wrong. Some builds may be better on another class, but the same could be said about lots of classes/builds. And putting in a dual attribute requirement for a weapon would be BAD for the game.

I don't want to be required to use Scythe Mastery AND Mysticism both just to use a scythe effectively. If so, Axe/Sword/Hammer should require Strength, Bow should require Expertise, Spear should require Leadership, and Daggers should require Critical Strikes.

And Evasion?

"Most roles have e-management primaries, but that's where it belongs.

Mesmers, Warriors, and Monks are the only ones I know that dont really have a good e-management primary.

Ex. Warriors strength may affect counter attack, but the attribute itself (compare to soul reaping) isnt pure energy.

Every other class has energy mangement.

Believe it or not Rits do in a way. The longer the weapon spells and binding rituals last, the more energy they regenerate, (based on default settings, like no upkept enchantments)."

Ritualists have Spawning Power. I will argue that increasing the duration of weapon spells is energy management, and Spawning Power does not increase the duration of Binding Rituals, it provides them with more health, which MAY allow them to last longer if under attack. Since Monks primarily use enchantments, they have enegry management outside of their attributes by your logic. A 20% Enchanting weapon mod gives them energy management.

Elementalists do not have energy management. More energy does not manage the use of it. I have seen MANY Ele's run out of energy because they don't know how to manage it, even when they have 13 Energy Storage.

So Warrior, Mesmer, Monk, Elementalist, and Ritualist are without energy management primary attributes. That is half the classes in the game. Dervish could be added into that list easily, as you gain energy when enchantments end. It may not be as good as other classes have, but it isn't the only thing it does.

MastrSplintr18 · Aug 14, 2009, 01:28 PM // 13:28

I have no idea what this would do to the balance of the game, but what if you made Mysticism to Dervishes what Expertise is to Rangers? For each rank in Mysticism, shave energy off of either Enchantments, Attack Skills, or both. Then just raise the energy cost of whatever skills' energy comes down with Mysticism.

I apologize I don't really know much about Dervishes, but on this thread alone I have seen Dervishes being out-scythed by other professions, energy management, and Mysticism being a worthless attribute. This seems to help all those issues as well as not make it impossible for other professions to still use the weapon to hit multiple targets.

Hope this helps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MagmaRed

I don't want to be required to use Scythe Mastery AND Mysticism both just to use a scythe effectively. If so, Axe/Sword/Hammer should require Strength, Bow should require Expertise, Spear should require Leadership, and Daggers should require Critical Strikes.

Sorry for the double post, but just saw this:

In a way, the OP is trying to make the scythe on the level of other melee weapons. All melee weapons besides the scythe are just straight damage producers, nothing special. BUT, by spending in to the primary attribute, they become more effective (warrior weapons get armor penetration with strength, and sins have a greater chance to do critical hits). The OP, if I am reading it right, is trying to make the Scythe a straight damage producer with hitting multiple targets as the special ability gained by spending in the primary attribute. That way, armor penetration with a melee weapon becomes unique to the Warrior, just as increased critical strikes with melee weapons becomes unique to the Assassin, and so the OP is trying to make hitting multiple targets unique to the Dervish, rather than the weapon. Its pretty obvious that based on the attack animations, spinning attacks that hit multiple targets was envisioned by ANET to be a unique Derv attribute, but for some reason they tied it to the weapon instead of the profession.

The problem is, hitting multiple targets at 100% damage is way more effective than a small percentage of armor penetration or a small increased chance at a critical hit. The earlier idea of diminished damage over multiple hits -- which can be boosted by mysticism -- I think is a good way to even out the gains from Strength and Critical Strikes with that of Mysticism.

Another idea might be to give a scythe an inherent chance of hitting multiple targets (say 50%) and then for each point in Mysticism, add another 3% or something.

The OP is right that their is an incongruency between Warriors, Dervs, and Assassins with how their weapons and primary attributes interplay.

IrishX · Aug 14, 2009, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Alternatively, Anet can lower high end scythe damage (while raising low end damage), so there is no reason for a sin to run a scythe. If you think strength actually adds anything meaningful to warrior damage, you really have no idea what you're talking about. Mysticism, although pretty horrible, adds more to Dervish damage than Strength does to a Warrior's. Crit strikes, on the other hand, is pretty rediculous with a scythe, but that is more of a problem due to the 120 damage crits thanks to Anets wonderful idea to implement a weapon with retarded high-end damage capable of spamming DW attacks.

IronSheik · Aug 14, 2009, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

If you're not using Mysticism, why not use Warrior's Endurance instead (and thus spec into Strength rather than Wind Prayers) and get the extra armour of a warrior?

Because strength is not my Dervish's primary attribute.

I am playing my Dervish.

reaper with no name · Aug 14, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by IrishX

Alternatively, Anet can lower high end scythe damage (while raising low end damage), so there is no reason for a sin to run a scythe. If you think strength actually adds anything meaningful to warrior damage, you really have no idea what you're talking about. Mysticism, although pretty horrible, adds more to Dervish damage than Strength does to a Warrior's. Crit strikes, on the other hand, is pretty rediculous with a scythe, but that is more of a problem due to the 120 damage crits thanks to Anets wonderful idea to implement a weapon with retarded high-end damage capable of spamming DW attacks.

Mysticism adds nothing to scythe damage.

Strength is the difference between a DR of 2 against a 60 AL target and a DR of 1.8. Pretty significant when paired with their energy management.

Axwind · Aug 14, 2009, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Perhaps tweak the numbers in Mysticism a bit. Instead of 1 health per point and 1 energy per 3 points, make it 3 health per point and 1 energy per point. At 12 Mysticism, that would give Dervs a +36 health/+12 energy bonus whenever an enchantment ends. That would provide better energy management than the existing version and making a primary Derv more effective without doing anything to scythes, thus allowing secondary Dervs to still be effective as well.

IrishX · Aug 14, 2009, 07:13 PM // 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Mysticism adds nothing to scythe damage.

Strength is the difference between a DR of 2 against a 60 AL target and a DR of 1.8. Pretty significant when paired with their energy management.

What E-management? You can run WE, but then you don't have an IAS. Mysticism does add to scythe damage, there is this wonderful enchantment called Heart of Fury which happens to be the best IAS available to dervs.

Strength does not add much to warrior damage. When people started running a 14/13/3 split on their axe bars instead of 14/10/9(or 10)/3, things didn't magically start taking huge damage and dying more. The only reason you spec into strength is for shield, skills in strength, and sentinel's if you are running 14.

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 15, 2009, 02:41 AM // 02:41

I'd personally enjoy seeing the Dervish's casting abilities strengthened - perhaps if Mysticism became some form of energy management (enchantment spells give high energy percent return, standard spells give very small percent energy return), and Dervish spells were looked at, reworked as needed. This enabling the Dervish to function more as a close-quarters caster with melee abilities (which is what it SHOULD be, and is something I'd love to see and to play), instead of a melee class with a bit of spellcasting support (because that's more the Assassin's role). Strengthening the Dervish's scythe abilities or weakening that of other classes is not the way to go; it still leaves the Dervish redundant and, probably, inferior. Strengthening and reworking the Dervish's caster abilities would be the thing to do.

In short:

Current dervish - melee class with a bit of spell backup, but loses out completely to Warrior and Dervish.

What it should be - a caster class. But a caster class with higher armour, its own melee weapon and melee line, and a host of close-quarters spells. Having the ability to do spell damage, or scythe damage, at enemies, from close range - rather than just scythe damage slightly augmented by spells.

Wands, staffs, and foci for Wind, Earth, and Mysticism would help in turning it into a proper caster/melee hybrid.

draxynnic · Aug 15, 2009, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Regarding the effect of the Strength primary: Back when Tactics was good, it was common for Strength to simply be the stat that gets whatever is left over once the weapon attribute, Tactics, and any secondary attributes are filled out. The penetration only applies to attack skills, and with most such skills having their bonus damage ignore armour anyway, the passive Strength effect is the weakest in the game with the possible exception of Spawning Power. Strength is popular not because of the 9-13% armour penetration it grants only when using attack skills, but because it's associated with good skills.

(Admittedly, the passive effect probably is also more important now, but that's because it's easier to spam attack skills than it used to be.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

Because strength is not my Dervish's primary attribute.

I am playing my Dervish.

But what are you getting for doing so? Shouldn't you get something more out of it compared to the Warrior than some small boosts to your attributes?

reaper with no name · Aug 17, 2009, 06:48 PM // 18:48

I was re-reading the thread, and I noticed that I somehow missed this post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

This is pretty much my thought, coupled with the thought that multiple-target hits is what scythes are all about (there are scythe skills that require the chance to hit multiple targets to be worthwhile, for instance). At the harshest, I'd make scythes hit two targets for Dervish secondaries.

Another compromise position could be to tie it to Scythe Mastery, but put a breakpoint at 13.

Holy mother of donkey f***ers! You are a genius!

This would give primary dervishes a reason to be used without nerfing dervish secondaries in any way! It's perfect! Everybody wins!

Bristlebane · Jul 21, 2010, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Breakpoint 14 Scythe Mastery would be better, any non-primary scythe user would put 12 anyway and then it's just using a consumable.

newbie_of_doom · Jul 21, 2010, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Great idea, you kinda overlooked the thing that you only hit foes adjecent to your target, so hitting 4 is already possible, just very very implausible.

However, I do not see the problem with R/D or W/D or anything other /D (besides Mo/D. Not sure if Mo/D are still around, because I sort of quit guild wars a good year ago, but they were OP, they just took 0 damage from melee. But that was simply poor skill balancing, not a problem with dervishes in particular.)

FengShuiDove · Jul 21, 2010, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Aug 17, 2009, 01:48 PM

Jul 21, 2010 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bristlebane

Breakpoint 14 Scythe Mastery would be better, any non-primary scythe user would put 12 anyway and then it's just using a consumable.

...there's a major Dervish buff in progress.

Why would you do such a thing?

P.S. This isn't a thread about Necros... owait

Steps_Descending · Jul 22, 2010, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catchphrase

I don't understand why people think mysticism is at fault for dervish's mediocrity. And scythe is still as fine as it should be on a dervish as dervish is not a true martial profession at all unlike warriors and assassins.

In a sense it is because the derv is seen as a martial profession with protection capacities (the later are seen as useless on a melee) And Mysticism isn't a martial attribute. Scythe is still as fine as it should be on a dercish, but dervish should have more to them than a scythe, which they don't.

Truth is, it's not the problem. In every body's view, it is the problem for perfectly legitimate reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

In short:

Current dervish - melee class with a bit of spell backup, but loses out completely to Warrior and Dervish.

What it should be - a caster class. But a caster class with higher armour, its own melee weapon and melee line, and a host of close-quarters spells. Having the ability to do spell damage, or scythe damage, at enemies, from close range - rather than just scythe damage slightly augmented by spells.

Wands, staffs, and foci for Wind, Earth, and Mysticism would help in turning it into a proper caster/melee hybrid.

Beleive it or not, but that was the original concept of the class, and hopefully the dervish update will bring it back to power.